Earlier, I had posted the following message: I was trained on Crystal _for_ RE by an outside consulting firm that specializes in technology solutions and training for non-profits. Their client base is made up largely of Blackbaud clients, so they have a 2-day Crystal class for database administrator types to learn Crystal and how to use it with Raiser's Edge. Each student brings reports they want to build. 1/2 the class each day is lecture and 1/2 is practicum with the Crystal Expert helping each student. I learned alot that way because we all got to work through the reports that each of us wanted to build. ** The consulting firm I used is called Jacobson Consulting Applications, and their website address is http://www.jcainc.com  They are located in New York City.

Matthew, One more question, if you don't mind. At this training, did you or did you not access Raiser's Edge directly? You said you brought reports you wanted to create. So did you have access to an RE database to create your exports and then your crystal reports? Denise Stengl Supervisor of Data Services School Sisters of St. Francis Milwaukee, WI [Email Removed]

We worked in Raiser's Edge the entire time. Each student ftp'd a backup copy of their database to the consulting office prior to the training, and the consulting firm set up each individual workstation for the appropriate version of RE and loaded the backup; so, each student was working in his/her own database with all their own data. Hope this helps.

I went to Charleston for training but they didn't cover anything to do with the Crystal Reports. Our instructor said that no one likes then and no one uses them. But when I call support for various things they tell me that you can create a Crystal Report. Well that would be great if I knew what the heck I was doing. Can you tell me how many days the training lasts and how is works? Have you been happy with the training you received? I was thinking about taking a Crystal Report class locally but it doesn't actually tie into RE it would just be a generic so to speak class. You may contact me directly if you would like at [Email Removed]. Staci J. Maine Coordinator, Donor Programs The Ohio Masonic Home Benevolent Endowment Foundation, Inc. Five Masonic Dr. Springfield, OH 45503 937-525-4983 [Email Removed]

Sounds like you didn't go to the Crystal reports training offered in Charleston. Must have been basic RE training. There is no way they can cover Crystal in anything other than it's own full length training. Melissa S. Graves Manager, Development Database & Direct Mail Planned Parenthood of Connecticut [Email Removed] 203-752-2804

I went to Essentials I and II. And according to the outline we were supposed to learn what I would guess to be the basics of Crystal. They have a class called Graduate Track: Custom Reporting but you have to have basic ability to create reports in Crystal. Staci J. Maine Coordinator, Donor Programs The Ohio Masonic Home Benevolent Endowment Foundation, Inc. Five Masonic Dr. Springfield, OH 45503 937-525-4983 [Email Removed]

Staci is correct. The last part of the agenda (at least the one I have) says you will create a simple Crystal Report but I have never heard of anyone who actualy did this in the class. From other attendees, I have heard the following excuses given by their trainers: We don't have enough time. You don't really need this. No one uses this. It's too complicated to get into. I agree with someone else who said that you should raise a fuss with Blackbaud to get what you paid for. On another note. Has anyone taken any Crystal training with Hammerman Associates? Denise Stengl Supervisor of Data Services School Sisters of St. Francis Milwaukee, WI [Email Removed]

I went to Essentials I and II locally and the instructor spent the last day on this. He said Crystal Reports is so useful that everyone should at least try it so everyone did a simple one in the morning and then he did a couple more complex ones in the afternoon and told everyone that if they didn't think they'd use it, they didn't have to come back after the lunch break. I thought the whole class was great and he certainly had the right philosophy-let the customer decide what they are or are not going to use. Kelsey Nolander Minnesota International Center [Email Removed]

From what I have seen from previous topics it looks like this isn't too difficult of a program to really learn. (I am hoping anyway!!!) So I think I am just going to sign up for a local Crystal Reports class. They however, have a prerequisite of Access so I will be taking that class first. Our facility already has several versions of Crystal for other departments to use including the newest version that we are able to tie into and that is the only version I have found classes on. Has anyone had any good experiences learing from a local company without ties to RE and workout? Thanks, Staci Staci J. Maine Coordinator, Donor Programs The Ohio Masonic Home Benevolent Endowment Foundation, Inc. Five Masonic Dr. Springfield, OH 45503 937-525-4983 [Email Removed]

Taking a local class is definitely less expensive than taking Blackbaud training and I've taken both. The main problem with local classes is that they spend much time on teaching you about table structures, SQL and joins which you need to know if you're using Crystal with other databases. However, because of the way the data is exported out using the format of Blackbaud reportwriter, you don't have to mess with any of this. You really don't need to know Access (my Access skills are poor but I've written some pretty complicated Crystal report), but I'm guessing the prerequisite of Access is just to have the table structure knowledge. Dee Demling Director of Advancement Services New York Medical College

I can see where you might get the impression that Crystal "isn't too difficult of a program to really learn", but I don't think that's an accurate assessment. I think that it's easy to learn the [b]basics[/b] of Crystal and that it's possible to produce great reports using only the basics, but I think that the vast majority of reports only scratch the surface of the capabilities of Crystal. I'm not sure that there is anyone on this list who [b]really[/b] knows Crystal. J. Drew Allen Children's Hospital of Philadelphia [Email Removed]

On top of covering R.E. support and development, I am responsible for another database that tracks all of our animal welfare operational activities and it uses Crystal as it's report engine. To-date I have written 167 Crystal Reports, which cover everything from animal adoption contracts to medical certificates, investigation/court reports and a wide variety of statistical reports. So far, for R.E., I have written about a dozen custom reports, including a backup to the commit control report (because that report is required by our Finance dept. but only appears when committing a batch and cannot be recreated via R.E.'s canned reports.) Do I consider myself an "expert" on Crystal? No. I consider myself an advanced user who is continually learning new ways to accomplish the output I require. My advice to anyone wanting to get the most out of Crystal is to ensure they understand how and when to use Groups, Subreports, Running Totals, Sub/Grand Totals, and the different ways tables can be linked (i.e. Equal Join, Left Outer Join, etc. etc.). I have found that RE's export format for Crystal is easy to work with and pretty much takes care of the linking for you. I see no need to understand MS Access (I never use it.) I learned Crystal Reports from the "Dummies" manual, and then by trial and error. I also make extensive use of the Internet's Tek Tips Forum for Crystal Reports - great for getting help with tricky formulas.Another great way to learn is to get hold of some reports done by others and pick apart the report so that you understand how it was constructed Crystal is up to ver. XI, but R.E. is stuck at ver. 8.5, so anyone planning to develop Crystal Reports for R.E. has to get hold of that old version. Crystal is very flexible and you can choose to keep it simple or go for very complex reports. Harriet Farmer Ottawa Humane Society [i]--- Edited at 2/14/2006 1:31:26 PM by Harriet Farmer[/i] [i]--- Edited at 2/14/2006 2:20:04 PM by Harriet Farmer[/i]

Well, Crystal only supports equal joins on Blackbaud's Report Writer export format. I'm not sure exactly why, because Crystal and Access both support outer joins. I don't see any reason why someone who is working only in Raiser's Edge needs to learn about other types of joins. J. Drew Allen Children's Hospital of Philadelphia [Email Removed]

Agreed Drew - I forgot that when exporting in Blackbaud's Report Writer Database format you are locked into equal joins. (However, for anyone out there who, like me, needs to use Crystal for more than just R.E., understanding joins is important.) Harriet Farmer Ottawa Humane Society

Question for Drew or Harriet (or anyone else!) Has anyone ever determined why Blackbaud's Report Writer Database only uses equal joins? This has caused us problems now that we have upgraded from Crystal 8.5 to Crystal XI. We just upgraded to RE 7.8 and installed Crystal XI. We have gone about recreating some of our Custom Reports in XI and are finding that all the tables are linked with and "equal join". This causes certain records to be suppressed when certain fields are blank. Any help is appreciated. Jason Tomalak